All posts in the topic Site Interface and Templates (Short link)
Summary
- There are 12 posts — by 5 authors — in this topic.
- Latest post made by David Teall at 2005 Oct 26 12:36 UTC
David,
I've moved this from "My reason for Exploring GroupServer".
> Is there anywhere I can go to have a
> play with the admin controls and
> even try setting up a group just
> to see what it looks like?
We currently don't have a place where that is possible. I could set
potentially set one up, tho.
> When I go to the Home Page of a
> Group I find the inclusion of Current
> Topics at the top of the page very distracting.
> It tooks me three visits before I
> discovered where to find the actual Messages
> as the whole of the "Members can:" section is
> in the same type face and looks like something for
> admin - not the way in to the fundamental part of the
> goup.
That page is driven from a template that can easily be edited via the
Zope administration interface. It is just one way that you can organise it.
We've chosen this approach so that the most visited pages have the most
dynamic content. The link to Messages isn't really the primary way to
get to the Messages area. I usually use the side menu. What I most often
do, however is go straight into a topic, which is why we show them there.
> Do allow you to change the
> layout of this page in any way?
No they don't, at present. You can select from a list of "group
templates" when you create a group.
>We currently don't have a place where that is possible. I could >potentially
set one up, tho.
That would be extremely useful as it's the admin of GroupServer that is
currently putting me off. I have had a look at the Administration Manual and
it just scared the pants off me. I reckon I'm pretty computer literate as far
as home users go but I really can't understand a single word of it. It looks
like the equivalent of setting up my Windows machine entirely by editing the
registry with no GUI what-so-ever. Would that be a reasonable analogy?
David,
The Admin interface allows you to the basic tasks of creating and
administering groups. It won't scare you. It will just take one of us
getting to setting up that "admin demo" group.
Yes, some of what you see in the Admin Manual involves scripting - or at
least copying and manipulating script. You don't need to do that for
regular admin. What it does mean, however is that, if you have someone
who can do that, GroupServer has a huge amount of flexibility.
It's the old tradeoff. You can have usability or flexibility, but not both.
I agree that it would be an extremely valueable evaluation tool. Just for comparison, phpbb offers a simple demo of their administrative interface: http://www.phpbb.com/admin_demo/index.htm <http://www.phpbb.com/demo.php> David Teall wrote: >>We currently don't have a place where that is possible. I could >potentially set one up, tho. >> >> >That would be extremely useful as it's the admin of GroupServer that is currently putting me off. I have had a look at the Administration Manual and it just scared the pants off me. I reckon I'm pretty computer literate as far as home users go but I really can't understand a single word of it. It looks like the equivalent of setting up my Windows machine entirely by editing the registry with no GUI what-so-ever. Would that be a reasonable analogy?
Hi all in Exploring Grpserver.
My first post in this group. I seem to have ideas about the interface every
time I am in grpserver - and reluctant to throw them at the hard working team,
but user feedback is the life blood of this service I think and it needs heaps.
Is this the right place for that feedback?
> When I go to the Home Page of a
> Group I find the inclusion of Current
> Topics at the top of the page very distracting.
I'd like to second that.
The links on the left are enough. The heading for the group and its
description are enough.
eg:
| GroupServer Admin Home
| GroupServer Admin is an Online Group for GroupServer Administrators.
By leaving it at that it is a strong statement about the group. And the
navigation is all in one place - on the left.
I am pleased it is configurable - and will do that some time in the groups I
administer - what is the Default is important and also what is modelled in the
groupsever forums.
hi Walter,
Yes, this is a good place for feedback.
>>When I go to the Home Page of a
>>Group I find the inclusion of Current
>>Topics at the top of the page very distracting.
>
> I'd like to second that.
I don't think the side menu is enough. It takes you two clicks to do
what takes you one with the topic list.
As I mentioned, we are trying to show dynamic content as quickly as
possible so that you can navigate into the specific page you are looking
for with the smallest number of clicks.
Why do you want the same content every time you visit a prominent page
like that?
The direction we're heading, in fact is to push more and more dynamic
content to the home page of the site.
One thing to think about is the tradeoff between usability for first
time visitors and regular visitors. This design might make it a little
harder for first time people to get what is going on - there's less
"about" the content and more "of" it. One people know what's there, I
think they just want it now. And if that interface is transparent
enough, it should make it obvious to new people.
That's the thinking behind our design, anyway. Do you think that's the
wrong idea or that it's the right idea and we haven't implemented it?
Hi Dan,
Thanks for your prompt responses, I hope you don't feel burdened to do
that, I am fine just to be able to register some of my ideas and let
them incubate.
> Yes, this is a good place for feedback.
OK
>>>When I go to the Home Page of a
>>>Group I find the inclusion of Current
>>>Topics at the top of the page very distracting.
It remains true for me as a user. I find it an effort to figure out
what is there. May be just me. I am not a regular user of the web,
because I do it all mostly by email.
I am very visual, and I find it all a clutter of stuff that is changing.
So it is one users experience at this time. Let it count for 2cents
worth, and act on it once you have $10.
> I don't think the side menu is enough. It takes you two clicks to do
> what takes you one with the topic list.
You have obviously thought about it.
> As I mentioned, we are trying to show dynamic content as quickly as
> possible so that you can navigate into the specific page you are looking
> for with the smallest number of clicks.
>
> Why do you want the same content every time you visit a prominent page
> like that?
Like coming home. But it might be that I could get that sense another
way.
There is an unsettling when I go to my NZAP site. All my groups and
their latest topics are there in one list. They don't belong in one
list. The boundaries between the groups is gone.
Also the long dates are a strain.
Perhaps if each of the groups I was in had a name & a logo and the
latest topics were under that.
But even then I think that is too much clutter.
~
I am keen to hear from lots more users - how do they use the web
interface to Groupserver?
> The direction we're heading, in fact is to push more and more dynamic
> content to the home page of the site.
OK, but don't forget that people my have read all that by email and are
coming to the web (like me) to calmly review an old topic, so current
topics are not even needed for that.
> One thing to think about is the tradeoff between usability for first
> time visitors and regular visitors. This design might make it a little
> harder for first time people to get what is going on - there's less
> "about" the content and more "of" it.
And it is muddled up together.
> One people know what's there, I
> think they just want it now. And if that interface is transparent
> enough, it should make it obvious to new people.
I think there should be no hurdle at all. If power users want something
they can add it later.
> That's the thinking behind our design, anyway. Do you think that's the
> wrong idea or that it's the right idea and we haven't implemented it?
I am not sure what is right or wrong. I see myself just as one user
giving feedback, and if 100 people did that then we might begin to get
an idea.
Interface is vital for me. I don't buy CDs much but I never buy one
with a cover I don't like. I don't look at web pages I don't like the
layout of. I block ads - so this stuff counts for me.
I'd love to hear from others, how do you use the web interface to the
groups?
What works what doesn't?
Inevitably much of this is down to personal preference. However, since we are using the power of GroupServer to discuss the matter ... Dan - you clearly feel that reducing the number of clicks to get where you are going has value in itself. I don't agree. I much prefer each page I look at to be clear, uncluttered and present me with a single decision - where do I want to go to next. If getting to my destination demands two such pages, or even three, I don't mind a bit if it means that each decision is clearly presented. What I hate is a cluttered page that I have to spend ages analysing in order to work out what options it is giving me. To decide which questions to present first, one needs to start with the most fundamental. The fundamental purpose of a GroupServer installation is to provide a number of different Groups or communities, each with some common purpose. The fundamental purpose of each Group is to provide a means for members to participate in conversations or topics, like we are doing now. Everything else is peripheral. With this in mind, the Home Page of an installation should present a clear list of the Groups it hosts. Go to http://groupserver.org/ and what do you find? It lists the latest topics, but it doesn't list the Groups - you have to go elsewhere for that. Now go to a Group Home Page. The same thing applies. It lists the current topics and lots of housekeeping information, but you have to go elsewhere for a full list of topics. It would make more sense to me to have what is currently /groups as the Home Page and what is currently /messages/view_threads as the Home Page for a Group with the house-keeping items in the panel to the left. As I said at the beginning, much of this is down to personal preference and none of it alters the fact that GroupServer is a great product. Keep up the good work!
At 9:23 PM +1300 10/26/05, David Teall wrote: >Dan - you clearly feel that reducing the number of clicks to get >where you are going has value in itself. I don't agree. I much >prefer each page I look at to be clear, uncluttered and present me >with a single decision - where do I want to go to next. I'm sympathetic to both Dan and David's points of view on this issue. As long as each additional click is serving some kind of purpose, I think it ok to have a 2-3 step process. However, I feel pretty strongly about eliminating any clicks that feel unnecessary. At 9:23 PM +1300 10/26/05, David Teall wrote: >It would make more sense to me to have what is currently /groups as >the Home Page and what is currently /messages/view_threads as the >Home Page for a Group with the house-keeping items in the panel to >the left. I think that my own approach tends to be along these lines as well. If you look at my own install of Groupserver, I've felt it important to list all the available groups on the main/home page and have (to some extent) hidden the "groups" page, because I've made it redundant in how I organized the main page. http://discuss.politalk.org/un/ (also: http://forums.e-democracy.org/stpaul) As I told Dan, the groups page (on my site) felt like an unnecessary click. Also, I didn't want the list of groups buried a click below the surface. On other sites, this may or may not make sense. Having said this, I'm not sure that I'm make the best use of the structure that groupserver provides and would like to rethink the set-up of my site at a later date. But for now....... that's my 2 cents. Thanks to Dan & Richard for the tool! Tim Erickson
At 2:37 PM +1300 10/26/05, Dan Randow wrote:
>One thing to think about is the tradeoff between usability for first
>time visitors and regular visitors. This design might make it a
>little harder for first time people to get what is going on -
>there's less "about" the content and more "of" it. One people know
>what's there, I think they just want it now. And if that interface
>is transparent enough, it should make it obvious to new people.
Despite my earlier comments (or in support of?), I think that this
approach is probably a good one. BUT, the trick is in implementation.
I like the idea of dynamic content on the home page, but I'm also
very keen on simple and clear navigation.
Sorry, but I don't have the magic recipe for the proper balance.....
but, I know it when I see it. I just need to look around for someone
that has "got it right" and see if I can learn anything from what
they have done.
Best wishes,
Tim Erickson
Tim,
> If you look at my own install of Groupserver, I've felt it important
> to list all the available groups on the main/home page and have (to
> some extent) hidden the "groups" page, because I've made it redundant
> in how I organized the main page.
Nice. Now that I have learnt just how configurable it is, and how one
can have less clicks and more clarity - when I get the chance I'll
figure out how to re-do my sites and let you all have a look. (Won't be
for a month or two though.)
Thanks Dan! Great to have a forum for this exploring!
>If you look at my own install of Groupserver, I've felt it important
>to list all the available groups on the main/home page and have
>(to some extent) hidden the "groups" page, because I've made it
>redundant in how I organised the main page.
Thanks for that Tim. I very much like the look of your Home Page and I am
encouraged to see an example of GroupServer configured to meet individual
needs. It is good to know that such customisation is possible.